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Commentary & Dissent
but not Dysentery

Bible emails Part One

Bible emails Part Three

The Church has never ever argued that the earth was flat. Galielo argued not that the earth was round (which everyone, including those in the earth had known since antiquity), but that the earth travelled around the sun. And this argument of his is ridiculous of course, it depends on the point of view. See Russell's "Inventing the Flat Earth".

"Fundamentalist's Flat Earth" is a figure of speech; its a reference to the blind faith rejection of demonstrated science, and the obvious in nature around us. (It's obvious at least, to people with open minds, that the world is a complete system, ancient, and one long mysterious miracle of creation. The Christian notion is that "nature is something we were put here to rise above.")

Furthermore, most of the torture done during witch trials was done to those accused of civil crimes, not of ecclesiastical ones, and they were comparable in their grisliness to those peformed by the pagans on the first Christians.

The inquisition was driven by fundamentalism - calling their victims 'civil criminals' was an attempt to exonerate themselves. It also shows how completely joined were church and government, in that priest's laws were the law of the land.
Torture has been with us always, since pre-history no doubt; and there is no further point in comparing horror stories.

Why do you have such an ax to grind with the church? If you are going to go through the trouble to put a site together, at least you could take the trouble to get your facts right.

Because history has a tendency to repeat itself. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (Santayana) And people like Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, and Pat Buchanan are only goading on the real loonies, the people like This, or This, or This, or This.

joan
ps-The religious haven't cornered the market on having faith in contradictions. You might want to open a physics book and find out whether light is a wave or a particle.

Yes, that's sure the truth. But do physicists or anthropologists throw bombs? or shoot doctors? or preach hate? Do they try to legislate morality? I don't think so.

I have a choice to believe what you think or believe the bible and there is only one and thats the king james version.The bible can see into the future and has told us what to expect with the nation of Israel and all has came true before our eyes.The bible says that in the last days knowledge shall be increased and it has happend and is happening at an incredible rate.The bible says that sin will wax worse and worse and oh how things have changed so rapidly within 40 years with open homosexuality and the list goes on and on.As the days of sodom so it shall be in the last days and how true it is today.The problem is that if you can explain away God then you can justify your sin as God says the carnal mind is not subject to the things of God nor can it be but is at enmity against God.You know what the odds of all this happening and the earth rotateing on its axel and the sun possitioned just perfect to sustain life on earth are?What about the complexity of the human body and the fact that you and I are alive is a miracle beyond belief.My friend you made fun of that person with that illeterate e-mail but I think hes got far more sense than a person who rejects the bible and believes we came from an ape.Fret not thy self because of the wicked man that brings evil devices to pass because in a little while he shall not be but the righteous shall live forever.All nations and those that forget God shall be cast into hell but the righteous shall endure forever!I am not saying this to hope you go to hell I hope this gets to you and you recieve Christ so I can see you in heaven one day.My e-mail is ssage@clubi.net if you want to respond back.If not God Bless and thanks for letting me share my opinion.

While I agree with many of your ideas and found interesting some information that I had not previously been exposed to. I could not help but notice that you are very biased against christians and that is in itself dangerous and shows a lack of evolution on your part...consider this...all people on the planet right now in every walk of life in every evint...all these people all of us are doing the very best we can do right now...sometimes that means bad things happen sometimes that means good thigs happen but ultimately it just means shit happens....
In the Love of the Great Spirit Starcannon
Be your own disciple

Starcannon:
Thanks for your letter. This, or This, or This, or This, orThis should be enough to demonstrate the attitudes possible with the right mix of mythology and stupidity. These people are not doing the best they can. Jesus did not preach hate.

I LOVE YOUR PAGE about Bible contradictions, and I have one more that I didn't see on your page. In the Old Testament, God often states that he's a "jealous God", but in the New Testament, he says that being jealous is a sin.

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)

Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

Kristin :
Thanks! Yes, I'm sure there are more contradictions than you can shake a stick at- So many different people claiming to have it all exactly right- how could they possibly NOT contradict each other? Your example is a good one, because jealousy is such a powerful trigger for people. The concept of a 'jealous God' is confusing; does it imply that there are OTHER gods of whom to be jealous? Of course they'll say it's just a figure of speech. (Yet another).
Thanks Again!

Dear RandL
thanks,yours is by far the best rage against the machine that I have yet encountered on my travels. As an Ex-ploited R.C. I had eaten my fill of fire and brimstone when at the age of 8 I made the earth shattering discovery that religions (I do not include 'Christianity' under this aegis,more later) do not worship God but are more concerned with the pursuits of Mammon. What little we see of US Evangelism on Brit TV leads me to the conclusion that most of the God-fearing Yank public must be gullible mindless sheep with more dollars than sense.

Most who have written in an anti attitude to your site profess to be Christians,yet most would not understand the true meaning of Christianity if they fell over it.

Firstly,Christianity is NOT a religion,it is a way of life whose single tenet is 'Do as you would be done by'

Secondly,true Christians whatever the name of their deity realise that all 'Gods' are one and the same,it is organized religio-zealots who give religions a bad name by their intolerance.

Thirdly,as all religions profess to be the 'True' path and all non-believers heretics,it naturally follows that ALL religious adherents are destined for somebody elses fiery pit........Mmmmmm.

Fourth,the bible was written by MEN for mens purposes,NOT Gods.

And five, Serve on your feet,not on your knees.

Best Wishes

Mick Bolton

I have just spent an hour browsing your site, and have bookmarked it, for it would literally take days to go through all the neat stuff therein.

A few comments about Christian idiots (from an ex-fundamentalist, no less!)

I know you are probably smart enough to know this, but I hope you don't think that there is even a shred of a chance that a fundamentalist reading your pages could in any way be changed. I am one of the few people I know that managed to free herself from that nonsense, and I think I have a unique perspective on the whole thing.

The problem is that Christianity, by definition, is an exclusionary belief system. "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life. No one comes to the Father except by me." Logic, reasoning, and intelligent debate will NEVER win the mind of a fundamentalist. They firmly believe, with all their hearts, that the Bible is literal truth, that they are on God's side, and any threat or challenge to their beliefs is straight from the pits of Hell. (Know what the real definition of "satanic" is to a Christian? "Anyhting I don't understand.") They cannot allow for ANY other possible view, for to do so immediately brings the whole house of cards tumbling down.

Believe me, Christians are not alone in their attitudes. I am convinced that the vast majority of humanity is utterly incapable of critical thinking. A fave quote of mine (thought I've lost the source) is: "people will invariably embrace a comforting lie rather than face a distressing truth." The truth (as far as we have evidence) is that life is a joke, death is the end of consciousness, and nothing really matters except managing to make it through life with a minimum of discomfort. I've often said that the only difference between Man and other animals is that Man (unfortunately) has the capability of UNDERSTANDING the futility of his fate. Faced with this, most people cannot accept it -- the truth hurts. So they concoct any and all means to blind themselves to the obvious (thought upsetting) facts, and concoct a "comforting lie" to put their minds at ease. (And I should know! I would say that when I was a Christian idiot, it wasn't so much that I believed it all, but more that I was afraid NOT to believe it!)

Anyway, I am the first to defend any individual's right to believe what he or she wants to, no matter how self-delusional, and no matter how obviously facts, science, common sense, or experience invalidates those beliefs. If you want to believe (in the words of C.S. Lewis) that a fried egg is the Son of God, so be it. (Here's a great Thomas Jefferson quote: "It matters not to me whether my neighbor believes in 20 gods, or no god. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket.") When I do have a problem is when such people seek to impose (and enforce) the values and restrictions of their belief system on those who do not embrace it. In other words, it's not enough for Christians to behave like Christians -- they want to force everyone else to ACT like Christians. This is folly, as even some liberal Christians would admit (a writer in Sojourners magazine once said, "you can not expect, nor force, people to act like Christ if they do not accept his Lordship").

Almost every "argument" in favor of things like outlawing abortion, repressing homosexuality, continuing the futile "wars" against behavioral non-crimes like drug use and prostitution, etc., eventually leads back to the Bible as "justification." Even those who are not actively or overtly religious have been inundated with the Christian culture for so long that they cannot see any other way. Any dialogue on the above subjects with a Christian will sooner or later end up with them proclaiming, "well, that's what the Bible says, so..." and even those who can quote not a word of scripture will eventually find themselves in a corner, stubbornly procliaming, "well.....it's just WRONG. That's all. It just is. Everybody knows that!"

I always say that if you are at least 30 years old, and have not in the course of your life had at least one or two major (not necessarily religious) beliefs change 180 degrees, then you are probably hopelessly mired in tradition, ignorance, and stubborn adherence to undefendable beliefs, and will likely never change. Anyone with a truly open mind will frequently change their minds about certain things as they continue to study and keep their brain working and LISTEN to opposing viewpoints rather than dismissing them.

I suppose people like me ramble on and on out of frustration -- there is nothing we can do to counter the stupidity of mankind -- we can only do our best to avoid being affected and damaged by it at the hands of others. I sometimes think that I am not of this planet, given the fact that hardly anyone else I meet seems to "get it." Perhaps you and I were born on the same planet.

Thanks for reading. Feel free to excerpt any portion of this marathon (I certainly wouldn't expect that you would quote it ALL) on your website. And keep up the good work! Remember: "Non illigitamus carborundum" ("Don't let the bastards wear you down....")

Peace,
Joanna
PS
I had to point out a couple of things concerning your otherwise excellent tratise on how the Bible came into its present form.
You name Matthew as the earliest gospel, and say the others were written "as long as 150 years after." Even open-minded Bible scholars with no ax to grind pretty much agree on Mark as the earliest Gospel, with material therein finding its way into Matthew (often edited or amended). The three synoptic gospels have a fairly early dating, while the gospel of John probably dates around 150-200 A.D. However, if you know of more recent research that supports your statement, please point me to it!
While on the subject, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about the rejection of the "gospel of Thomas." The "playlist" of the Bible was compiled by the Council not for reasons of perceived inspiration or divine origin, but on the basis of maintaining POWER over their followers. Any scripture that placed the means of salvation or enlightenment into the hands of the individual believer was a dangerous thing indeed. Politics, not religion, was the deciding factor in many of the decisions made.
Been on your site for over two hours now -- rarely has any place on the Web held my interest for so long!! Good work!!
Peace, Joanna

I must say that I am impressed by the time you took to make this page and entire site, and I also must say that I'm sure you've heard this countless times, but I somehow feel the need to express my opinion. I myself am not fond of "christians" such as the christian coalition who set out to attack non-christian groups, or christians that have an attitude about their beliefs (thinking that they are superior to others, perfect, ect.). I don't believe that is displaying a christian attitude. I myself am a christian, and am greatly disappointed at seeing other people act the way some of them have. I don't believe in being superior over any non-believers, I see that as being a huge turn-off to a relationship with Christ. Christians that try to persuade non-believers into christianity by force or by trying to "save the world" with acts like banning certain things (Disney World for having a Gay day, Marilyn Manson for obvious reasons, etc.) and trying to destroy them, is not portraying a very christian attitude, either.

If they want to portray a christian attitude, they should be out praying for these people, and accepting them for who they choose to be. Jesus was a loving person, he went through hell (literally!) to make our sins forgiven. It only works if we choose to believe and accept that, we don't have to earn a bunch of brownie points to make it into heaven. I'm certainly not saying that I'm better than anyone...I've done plenty more than my fair share of sinning, believe me. I'm merely saying that I am slightly offended by some of the comments. Many christians do agree, I'm sure, but it's also easy to see the ones who are out to play games. I would like to suggest that you make mention of the fact that there are people like me, people who are trying to do the best they can, just like you, just like anybody, and that not all christians are like that, which was the message I felt after reading this page. I'm sorry if I misread or misunderstood. Thankyou for freely expressing your opinion, though, and for making such a unique site.
Jessica Berg

I came upon your site while looking up information on Thomas Paine. I first stumbled onto your torture page, and found a link to the Bible Contradictions page. Being borderline agnostic/athiest (and being easily distracted, especially while doing homework), I decided to take a look. My comment concerns the picture of the fundamentalists protesting against homosexuality. I found it very appropriate that they were standing behind barriers marked "Bureau of Sanitation." It had me rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off. That is one great picture.

Jim Franz

Whew! I just spent the past two hours browsing your rather expansive site, finally getting caught in the Xtianity dialogue you created. You raised some insightful points, and presented plenty of thought-provoking material. I only hope that most of the surfers here actually take the bait and Think About It.

Many of the issues you raise (notably comparing the teachings of the original Jesus with the permutations of various churches and theologians) have been debated for centuries. Certainly, the origins of Christianity were not dominated by the Paulist thinkers. The story seems to go like this: Rome was degenerating in the eyes of its people, and they yearned for a more structured, strict, assured way of being. Men were bound to continue in the professions of their fathers, and free thinking was associated with dangerousness, lawlessness, and the debauchery of the educated patricians. Catholic faith fit snugly into the hole in the hears of so many imperial citizens.

But the rigid thinkers didn't have a monopoly on Christianity (at first): remember the Gnostics. For some very interesting browsing, check this out: Gnosis.

So sad that those who yearn for enlightenment are so often smothered by the masses who crave blindness: a world where one need only believe, and never question. I would think that exploring God's creation, questioning it, and revelling in it would be a powerful way to honor God. But it is the consensus among Christian faiths that one must have blind faith in the capricious whims of a jealous, vengeful god who will smite you for your divergence because he loves you so much. Does somebody need a shrink here?

The quest for understanding: this is the foundation of religion. I hope that more people will find the strength to realise this, and stop letting other people's instructions and imperatives come between them and wakefulness. I would rather be blinded by the magnificence of Creation than keep my eyes shut tight.

You provided me so much food for thought today, and I have more of your work yet to browse. May these words lead you to inspiration as yours have lead me. May the breath of Creation fill you.

Good Journey,
Matthew

One of the nicer quotes from the Bible is that "The soft answer turns away wrath." It's ironic and amusing when an atheist speaks softly, and the Biblical-minded persons respond enraged.

Lately, someone tried to argue that atheism involves "faith," just as religion does. I suppose that may be true for some people, but I don't think it is necessary. I don't believe in a "Basic God" for much the same reason I don't believe in four-sided triangles: there are inherent contradictions. I'm willing to admit the possibility of powerful beings -- sort of like Star Trek's Q -- but the idea of a "Basic God" -- i.e., one possessing omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence -- is meaningless. (Of course, the God of Exodus might have been merely a powerful meddling entity. Shrug. At least it isn't a nonsensical conjecture...)

I was very young when I was first beaten up on a school playground for not testifying my belief in God. Since that day, decades ago, I have not had much cause to improve my opinion on the tactics used by the faithful to discourage dissent. Your page is a testimony to the fact that, by and large, we're *better* than they are. At least we can recognize the fallacy of the undistributed middle, a simple little error that occurs in nearly every modern fundamentalist teaching.

(Recently, some religio threatened the city of Orlando, Florida, with hurricanes, and even a meteor, for harboring gays. By his logic, God hates every town and region where natural disasters strike...and favors those areas where they don't. After all, if AIDS is God's plague against homosexual men, then God must favor lesbians above all other persons... Sigh... Here's to logic and here's to set-theory!)

Best wishes,
Sincerely,
Jefferson P. Swycaffer

Your page on bible contradictions was excellent. I enjoyed it very much. There was only one thing I did not like about it. You say that people of every every religion claim that they are the ones to go to heaven. But you seem to leave out a religion here.

Wicca and Paganism do not believe that there even is a heaven and believe that every path is the right path, as long as it suits the person following it and leads them to spiritual enlightment. Also, the major religion of India, Hinduism, holds religion in the same regards as Wicca and Paganism. Whatever works best for you is fine. They, too, believe in reincarnation, but only to a certain point.

Otherwise... the whole collection is absolutley marvelous. I would love to take it to the Baptist Church I used (May I please point out the used and make a very large point of that?) to go to, but they would probably hang me up on their cross and try to "save me" again. Just wanted to say, nice work on showing some of the many lies.

Astrophelia Addenda

Linlee:
Thanks! And thanks for clarifying that very important point. The fundamentalist argument is that religion is not a smorgasbord, where you pick and choose what you want. Hinduism has survived for 4,000 years because of its flexibility, and because of its recognition and honoring of human nature. All paths lead to God in Hinduism, and in the Wiccan and Pagan traditions. This is from the recognition that God is infinite, and truly at the end of every road. The passive Hindu stance also has bred very little Hindu-originated violence.
Thanks Again!
RandL